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The Chino Valley Unified School District had no legitimate reason under the state open-meeting law to eject Superintendent of Public Instruction Tony Thurmond from a board meeting Thursday night after he spoke against a policy requiring district officials to notify parents if students come out as transgender at school, an open government expert said.
Thurmond “did nothing whatsoever that warranted a removal from the meeting,” said David Loy, the legal director of the First Amendment Coalition, an open government group, after watching a video of the incident.
The policy Thurmond opposed was later approved by a 4-1 vote.
Thurmond had spoken for his allotted minute Thursday night before the board in San Bernardino County when he was signaled his time was up, a video of the meeting shows.
As he stopped talking and walked away from the lectern, board President Sonja Shaw responded.
“Tony Thurmond, I appreciate you being here tremendously. But here’s the problem. We’re here because of people like you. You’re in Sacramento, proposing things that pervert children,” Shaw said, her voice rising. She also criticized Thurmond for campaigning last year for then-incumbent board member Christina Gagnier, whom Shaw defeated in November.
“You walked for my opponent,” Shaw said. As she spoke, Thurmond walked back to the lectern.
In an interview with EdSource on Friday, Thurmond said he returned to the lectern because Shaw was commenting directly to him, and he thought she wanted to engage in a discussion.
Thurmond called for a “point of order,” but Shaw cut him off saying, “This is not your meeting. You may have a seat because if I did that to you in Sacramento, you would not accept it. Please sit, you are not going to blackmail us.”
Thurmond tried to respond again, and Shaw called for a five-minute break” in the meeting and left the stage where board members were sitting.
Thurmond was quickly encircled by four uniformed district security guards and walked off camera, the video shows, and left the meeting. He said in a tweet later Thursday that Shaw ordered his removal.
The state open-meetings law, the Ralph M. Brown Act, has a provision that allows a public board to remove disruptive people, but they have to be warned first “and given the opportunity to stop disrupting,” Loy said.
The act “is consistent with the First Amendment,” Loy said, in that a public board “cannot shut you down simply because it doesn’t like what you have to say.”
What happened to Thurmond could have a chilling effect on others who may decide not to speak publicly on important issues out of fear of being shouted down or forcibly removed, Loy said,
“I think it’s very troubling that (Shaw) would call out a speaker by name and in effect dress them down, with potentially what could be taken as very insulting language,” Loy said, “I’m not taking a position on the public policy debate, but (Shaw) seemed to express a certain hostility.”
Thurmond said he didn’t sense any danger from the guards or the audience, which cheered loudly as he left. He said he wanted to get ahead of the guards and went outside to speak to reporters as the meeting resumed.
“I made a decision to move ahead of them removing me and went to address the media,” Thurmond told EdSource. A statement issued by the California Department of Education late Friday said Thurmond was “forcibly escorted out of the meeting by security.”
Shaw, in comments Saturday, said Thurmond was not forcibly removed from the meeting. District Superintendent Norm Enfield did not respond to messages left for him on Friday.
Thurmond also told EdSource he was surprised that Shaw brought up his support for Gagnier last year.
“I volunteered for her opponent. What does that have to do with anything? Why would that be brought up at a public meeting? Politics shouldn’t be part of a public meeting. … Once the election is over, we work together,” he said.
Carl Cohn, the former superintendent of Long Beach and San Diego Unified and former California State Board of Education member, Saturday offered an account consistent with the video and described what happened off-camera. He attended the meeting for research he is doing on how the culture wars are affecting school boards.
Cohn said he was about 10 feet away from the podium when the “drama unfolded.”
He said there was “no disruption on Tony Thurmond’s part.” He described how the security guards who were stationed around the room came to the podium and surrounded Thurmond when he had asked for a point of order to respond and Shaw refused. “Tony had a congenial conversation with the security guards,” said Cohn, followed by Thurmond leaving the room with guards following him to the door.
He said he was taken aback by Shaw’s behavior on the dais.
“As a school superintendent for 12-plus years, I’ve seen a lot of board meetings, but I’ve never seen a school board chair, after there’s been a motion, a second and a call for public comment, personally attack the speaker for their remarks,” Cohn said. “She should have gone ahead and called the next speaker after Tony’s time was up, but she chose to personally escalate a confrontation with him.”
Shaw claimed Thurmond “interrupted the meeting calling out from his seat multiple times.”
Cohn said Shaw’s account of what happened “is a complete made-up lie on the part of the board president. There is not a single element of truth in what she is saying,” Cohn said. “Tony never called anything out during the meeting and only returned to the podium after she had attacked him.”
In his public comments, Thurmond said he opposed the board’s policy because it endangers students.
During his brief remarks to the board Thursday, he pointed out that “nearly half of the students who identify as LBGTQ+ have considered suicide” and that “the policy that you consider tonight may fall outside the laws that protect the privacy and safety of our students (and) may also put our students at risk because they live in homes where they cannot be safe.”
The school board ultimately voted to approve the policy, which mirrors failed Assembly Bill 1314. The California Legislative LGBTQ+ Caucus described legislation that aims to “out” transgender and nonbinary students against their will as putting children in potentially life-threatening danger and subjecting them to trauma and violence.
Last week a federal judge in Sacramento rejected a lawsuit brought against Chico Unified School District in Butte County by a mother who claimed that a district policy allowed school staff to transition her child by referring to the child’s preferred name and pronouns. But U.S. District Judge John Mendez found the district did nothing wrong.
The state has a legitimate interest “in creating a zone of protection for transgender students and those questioning their gender identity from adverse hostile reactions, including, but not limited to, domestic abuse and bullying,” Mendez wrote in a ruling dismissing the mother’s constitutional challenge to the state law on which the policy was based. Mendez wrote that students have the right to “disclose their gender identity to their parents on their own terms.”
Chino Valley Unified has had a revolving door of ultraconservative school board members who have opposed state laws protecting transgender students’ rights. In 2021, the board attempted to ban transgender students from using restrooms and locker rooms corresponding to their gender identity but failed after the California Attorney General’s Office warned that the proposal violated the state education code and it was prepared to litigate.
This story has been corrected to accurately report the nature of lawsuit involving the Chico Unified School District in Butte County in which a federal judge in Sacramento ruled that children have a right to disclose their gender identity to their parents on their own terms.
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Comments (15)
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Emma 9 months ago9 months ago
It appears Mr. Thurmond, of the “Good for thee, but not for me” party was disappointed to be treated as many parents have been treated the past few years.
Michelle 9 months ago9 months ago
This article is false at the headline. To claim to be an "ed source" and not know how school board meetings are run is unacceptable. You, nor I, can just walk back up to a microphone and speak after you make your public comments. Every one is legally allowed time to speak, you can not walk back up and speak because you do not like what the board has to say about your comments. If … Read More
This article is false at the headline. To claim to be an “ed source” and not know how school board meetings are run is unacceptable. You, nor I, can just walk back up to a microphone and speak after you make your public comments. Every one is legally allowed time to speak, you can not walk back up and speak because you do not like what the board has to say about your comments. If there is no law and order we do not have a civilized society. He knows the rules, so he is either inept or entitled. There are rules for these meeting for a reason. Trust me it has happened to us, we sit silenced in our seats while the board publicly mocks parents. If we stood back up there we would be removed too. It’s not up for debate what happened in that room, it’s all on video. His feeling just got hurt, hence the “outrage.”
Tony Thurmond is an entitled politician, nothing else. He needs to sit down. Mrs. Shaw was completely within her right to have him removed, you need to review the whole board meeting and get yourself educated because this article make you look like and “uneducated source”.
CVUSD Parent 9 months ago9 months ago
This is the message from Parent Square that was posted on July 27th at 4:00pm pacific time: Subject: "A Message from CVUSD Superintendent - Thank You Security Personnel and Staff" Dear CVUSD Families, As the summer quickly winds down and we all prepare to return to school, I would like to reach out,and express my sincerest gratitude for your constant commitment to the Chino Valley Unified School, District and its staff. On July 20, 2023, the Chino Valley Unified … Read More
This is the message from Parent Square that was posted on July 27th at 4:00pm pacific time:
Subject: “A Message from CVUSD Superintendent – Thank You Security Personnel and Staff”
Dear CVUSD Families,
As the summer quickly winds down and we all prepare to return to school, I would like to reach out,and express my sincerest gratitude for your constant commitment to the Chino Valley Unified School, District and its staff.
On July 20, 2023, the Chino Valley Unified School District Board of Education voted to approve Board Policy (BP) 5020.1 – Parent Notification. While District staff sincerely appreciates and respects, sentiments that support or oppose the newly adopted board policy, misinformation has been, and, continues to be, circulated among media outlets, and I wish to help alleviate any anxiety or concern initiated by these untruths.
First, Chino Valley staff remain committed to providing a safe and positive school environment for all
students, families, and District employees. I am proud of the staff Chino Valley employs and am
grateful for the dedication employees continuously afford our scholars in the classroom and on each
school campus. This unwavering devotion to providing students with the highest quality of instruction and social-emotional support is what has set apart and identified CVUSD among neighboring school districts.
Second, following his allotted time to speak during the Board of Education meeting on July 20, California State Superintendent Tony Thurmond reported to media personnel – in addition to publishing statements on his official Twitter account – that he was forcibly removed from the board of education meeting. Verified by the Director of Risk Management and HR and the CVUSD security personnel who engaged with Mr. Thurmond, staff approached the State Superintendent to encourage him to return to his seat and continue his participation in the meeting as an audience member after the board president had repeatedly requested him to sit down. Returning to the podium to continue his comments was not only a direct violation of Board Bylaw – 9323, but it interfered with speakers scheduled to speak after Mr. Thurmond who had requested to address the Board of Education. I would like to extend my appreciation to our security staff for their poise and professionalism exhibited during the meeting and honorably representing the District.
It saddens me that these intentional dishonesties place our security personnel under unfair scrutiny and call into question their professionalism. To encourage positive interactions with students, staff, and members of our community, these outstanding individuals receive annual training hosted in collaboration with local law enforcement agencies where attendees learn effective and valuable de-escalation techniques, emergency disaster preparedness, NARCAN training, and other indispensable safety instruction.
I am hopeful that the State Superintendent will honor the District’s request to correct the misinformation and accurately reflect the professional courtesy our Security Officers exhibited during their discussion with Mr. Thurmond. After all, meeting recordings illustrate that each employee displayed exceptional professionalism under severe circumstances, and I cannot describe how appreciative the District is for their service.
I am eager to begin our upcoming school year on a positive note by showcasing the spectacular academic and athletic achievements of Chino Valley students. I am sincerely proud of the collaborative fabric our families and staff have stitched together throughout the years. We are a community rich in tradition with a solid dedication to student achievement, and I believe these are the virtues that should identify us when one hears the name Chino Valley Unified School District. As always, thank you for your continued collaboration and support!
Sincerely,
Norm Enfield, Ed.D.
Superintendent
Concerned Parent 9 months ago9 months ago
A key point being left out also from the astute comments found in the comments section is that Sonja Shaw states she learned this from her predecessor. So the former board president who she ran and won against when Sonja was a parent coming to board meetings and speaking out during the COVID lockdowns and policies for masks, vaccines, testing etc the former board president would call "Point of Order" after a parent spoke and … Read More
A key point being left out also from the astute comments found in the comments section is that Sonja Shaw states she learned this from her predecessor. So the former board president who she ran and won against when Sonja was a parent coming to board meetings and speaking out during the COVID lockdowns and policies for masks, vaccines, testing etc the former board president would call “Point of Order” after a parent spoke and do the same thing that was done here. It was probably done to Sonja as well. As Tony Thurmond came and this was the only district where he walked for a candidate (the former board president that ran against Sonja; actually moved to run against Sonja as she was supposed to be in a different area in the district!) he should know that someone he supported as a candidate actually walking for her and canvasing for her did this very practice to the active parents going to the board meetings and giving public comment during COVID.
Glad it was admitted in this article that Thurmond was not kicked out also! He led the way and walked out. He was provided another room to do his press coverage in also. He was not out in the blistering heat. The district provided him a room.
We did all stand in line to submit a card for public comment. Thurmond was not in line. He was still able to go first and got his one minute like all the rest of us did.
Cherri Tompkins 9 months ago9 months ago
This was a complete travesty of justice. If I resided in the area and had a child attending school in that district I would move. Who does that board think they are? I hope CTA and CSEA join forces to assist parents and anyone else who believes this is wrong to work against the whacko School board.
Lisa Disbrow 9 months ago9 months ago
Why isn't Ed Source treating the video of the Chino Valley board meeting as proof that Supt. Thurmond, Mr. Loy and Mr. Cohn's allegations are false? Are we to ignore when an elected public officer is caught on video disrespecting the board-approved public comment limits, the courtesy of speaking before the other 82 speakers and refusing to "take a seat" as directed numerous times? How can such an experienced past school board and Assembly … Read More
Why isn’t Ed Source treating the video of the Chino Valley board meeting as proof that Supt. Thurmond, Mr. Loy and Mr. Cohn’s allegations are false? Are we to ignore when an elected public officer is caught on video disrespecting the board-approved public comment limits, the courtesy of speaking before the other 82 speakers and refusing to “take a seat” as directed numerous times? How can such an experienced past school board and Assembly member violate these norms?
If truth matters then the false statements must be retracted. How can the parents of California trust the senior educational officer if he and his allies are unwilling to admit these obvious errors?
Brenda Lebsack - Former school board member 9 months ago9 months ago
Todd, you have great points and as a former school board member I totally agree with you. Thurmond was seeking special treatment, yet when he is limited to "follow the rules" he plays the victim and mainline media oblige him. However parents who have done the same during "lock down and mask mandates" were labeled by the National School Board Association "domestic terrorists" - A double standard indeed. Read More
Todd, you have great points and as a former school board member I totally agree with you. Thurmond was seeking special treatment, yet when he is limited to “follow the rules” he plays the victim and mainline media oblige him. However parents who have done the same during “lock down and mask mandates” were labeled by the National School Board Association “domestic terrorists” – A double standard indeed.
Todd Maddison 9 months ago9 months ago
As has already been said by Lisa and Brenda, it seems pretty clear what happened, and although the EdSource account is more objective than most, what happened generally does not match most media accounts. I have greatly appreciated some of the positions David Loy has taken in the past on open meetings, but... "The act “is consistent with the First Amendment,” Loy said, in that a public board “cannot shut you down simply because it doesn’t like … Read More
As has already been said by Lisa and Brenda, it seems pretty clear what happened, and although the EdSource account is more objective than most, what happened generally does not match most media accounts.
I have greatly appreciated some of the positions David Loy has taken in the past on open meetings, but…
“The act “is consistent with the First Amendment,” Loy said, in that a public board “cannot shut you down simply because it doesn’t like what you have to say.””
Is clearly not correct. Thurmond was shut down because his minute was up, not because of what he was saying. He was not allowed to come back to the podium because that’s simply the way the rules work. He was asked to leave because he repeatedly attempted to ignore that rule, and if we believe the video and firsthand accounts, he was not “ejected”, he left on his own.
I have been to many, many school board meetings in many districts, particularly during the reopen controversies, and have seen the exact same thing happen to parents. Cut off at the time limit, and then – if they continue to speak – at some point asked to leave. I have seen parents escorted out far more forcefully than Thurmond, and I’ve seen entire board meetings shut down because the board did not want to hear what community members had to say.
That is the type of treatment we’ve seen happen to parents over and over again, but rarely is it given this kind of spin because in those cases the education establishment “wins” the argument, and they control the narrative.
In this case they lost – and parents won. That makes it big news, and has resulted in many stories implying the CVUSD board did something unusual and unwarranted.
I’ve been addressed by board members following public comment, disagreeing with my position. I don’t get to go back up to the podium to engage in debate with them – neither does Thurmond. The difference is that I know that.
Were Shaw’s comments perhaps a bit more aggressive than they should have been? Maybe true, but then that’s also just the way the rules work – board presidents get to speak when people who are just attending the meeting do not.
Replies
John Fensterwald 9 months ago9 months ago
Todd, the difference here is that the president of the board did not wait until the board's discussion period to criticize Supt.Thurmond. Citing "Point of order," she attacked him personally immediately after his minute was over, including the remark “We’re here because of people like you. You’re in Sacramento proposing things that pervert children." He, in turn, said, "Point of order" – the parliamentary term for "Can you give me a minute to respond?" … Read More
Todd, the difference here is that the president of the board did not wait until the board’s discussion period to criticize Supt.Thurmond. Citing “Point of order,” she attacked him personally immediately after his minute was over, including the remark “We’re here because of people like you. You’re in Sacramento proposing things that pervert children.” He, in turn, said, “Point of order” – the parliamentary term for “Can you give me a minute to respond?” She called a recess instead.
Todd Maddison 9 months ago9 months ago
Thanks. I'm certainly not an expert on the Brown Act (and most certainly not to the extent Mr. Loy is), but I would think section 54954.2. (a) (3)) (below) says board members don't have to wait for all comment on an agenda item to be completed before addressing individual comments. Just anecdotally, I've been to (and spoken at) many school board meetings and have not only had board members address me specifically following on-agenda … Read More
Thanks. I’m certainly not an expert on the Brown Act (and most certainly not to the extent Mr. Loy is), but I would think section 54954.2. (a) (3)) (below) says board members don’t have to wait for all comment on an agenda item to be completed before addressing individual comments.
Just anecdotally, I’ve been to (and spoken at) many school board meetings and have not only had board members address me specifically following on-agenda comment, but have somewhat frequently seen them address others, which seems to be their right within the Brown Act.
Yes, her comments were definitely more personal than most, but – again – I’ve certainly had personal comments addressed to me, particularly when speaking to the board about the damage they were doing to our kids in keeping the schools closed.
As for the point of order, Thurmond can ask, and as I understand it the Board President can decline – which is what happened. If I can say the magic words and get back to the podium after my time is up, that would be wonderful, but have to say it would probably lead to even more chaotic meetings.
Personally I would love to have seen a debate between them. If I had known there was a possibility of that I would have gone to the meeting. But from what I can see proper procedures were followed. I’ve certainly seen “worse” applied in the last few years when a “pro-education-establishment” board wants to shut down comment from those who oppose that agenda, including leaving the room (I was at meetings in Vista and San Marcos where that happened.)
And in those cases the media response has generally been to decry the people doing what Thurmond tried to do as “disruptive” for attempting to speak out further, not take their side and defend their actions. I mostly agree with that – I’ve been in the back of the room urging people to calm down many times….
There is blame to go around on both sides, it just seems to me most of the media headlines on this (not yours) are misleading in their implication that somehow the CVUSD board was completely off the rails on this, rather than simply following proper meeting procedure, even if in a bit of a forceful manner.
54954.2. (a) (3) No action or discussion shall be undertaken on any item not appearing on the posted agenda, except that members of a legislative body or its staff may briefly respond to statements made or questions posed by persons exercising their public testimony rights under Section 54954.3. In addition, on their own initiative or in response to questions posed by the public, a member of a legislative body or its staff may ask a question for clarification, make a brief announcement, or make a brief report on his or her own activities.
Maril 9 months ago9 months ago
Nobody trusts an “expert.”
Lisa Disbrow 9 months ago9 months ago
I ask Carl Cohn to count how many times Supt Thurmond ignored the directive to stop speaking past his 1 minute. (3) The video is clear. The Supt heard the speaker's directions and the board rationale for limiting the 83 speakers to 1 minute. Carl Cohn also witnessed Assemblyman Essayli limited to 1 minute and accept his time was over. Did Carl Cohen hear Trustee Shaw exercise the privilege of a board member to point … Read More
I ask Carl Cohn to count how many times Supt Thurmond ignored the directive to stop speaking past his 1 minute. (3) The video is clear. The Supt heard the speaker’s directions and the board rationale for limiting the 83 speakers to 1 minute.
Carl Cohn also witnessed Assemblyman Essayli limited to 1 minute and accept his time was over.
Did Carl Cohen hear Trustee Shaw exercise the privilege of a board member to point of order? Why didn’t Carl Cohen mention that when Supt Thurmond’s request for point of order was denied the Supt refused to comply with the request denial and the direction to take a seat. He continued 6 more times to insist on a point of privilege that had been denied.
Those who re-watch and count can view Supt Thurmond’s insistence and that he was never ejected but chose as he stated to leave in order to make a statement to the media.
Let’s get the facts right!!!
Brenda Lebsack - elementary teacher 9 months ago9 months ago
I was not there. I saw some of the video. But friends of mine who attended the meeting said this: "He wasn’t officially ejected. In accordance with the rule the board established at the beginning of the meeting, his public comment time was up and he wouldn’t leave the podium so Trustee Shaw called a 5 min break and walked off the dais so arrogant Thurmond could come to his senses" Bottom line - It's … Read More
I was not there. I saw some of the video. But friends of mine who attended the meeting said this:
“He wasn’t officially ejected. In accordance with the rule the board established at the beginning of the meeting, his public comment time was up and he wouldn’t leave the podium so Trustee Shaw called a 5 min break and walked off the dais so arrogant Thurmond could come to his senses”
Bottom line – It’s great news the board passed the Parental Notification Policy in spite of Thurmond opposing it. Here is the policy. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1K4KVDwIU_4wnYDxbSyK2poTAQnGGBFwR/view
I wish this notification policy would also pass in my school district where teach, but also include notifying non-English speaking parents that children are being read books that tell them their gender changes like the weather based on their feelings. No wonder these kids are getting so confused and anxious. These books are creating a mental health crisis. https://brenda4kids.com/index.php/our-media/gender-books-in-elementary-schools-cause-gender-confusion-in-children And yet, these are the very books Thurmond is very proud about bringing into our schools.
Caroline 9 months ago9 months ago
This school board is really pathetic. The president is horrible. I am a junior college trustee. I would never dream to commenting on a speaker's comment (any speaker). The board is there to listen and take action later. For her to conduct herself in such an offensive and rude manner is silencing those who have a different opinion of her and is not the proper way to conduct a public meeting. … Read More
This school board is really pathetic. The president is horrible. I am a junior college trustee. I would never dream to commenting on a speaker’s comment (any speaker). The board is there to listen and take action later. For her to conduct herself in such an offensive and rude manner is silencing those who have a different opinion of her and is not the proper way to conduct a public meeting. To attack a speaker because he is an elected official that she doesn’t agree with (who addressed the board respectfully) and then not allow him to answer her insults. What a horrible person. I feel so sorry for those students to have to tolerate her hatred.
Replies
Todd Maddison 9 months ago9 months ago
May want to review the Brown Act with your legal counsel. I believe Thurmond was speaking on an agenda item, and it is most certainly permissible for board members to question/comment on on-agenda comment. Matter of fact, having gone to many, many board meetings I think a board member who never asks questions or comments on on-agenda public comment is somewhat derelict in their duty. Are you saying that not one single commenter in … Read More
May want to review the Brown Act with your legal counsel. I believe Thurmond was speaking on an agenda item, and it is most certainly permissible for board members to question/comment on on-agenda comment.
Matter of fact, having gone to many, many board meetings I think a board member who never asks questions or comments on on-agenda public comment is somewhat derelict in their duty.
Are you saying that not one single commenter in your time on the board has ever raised a point that you think deserves further examination?