When students counsel other students

Transcript:

Anne:

Welcome to Education Beat. I’m Anne Vasquez, executive director of EdSource. Student mental health is a big concern amid the COVID pandemic. Many students are showing signs of anxiety and depression. And California has urged schools to invest in mental health programs and to hire more counselors. But what about when the counselor is a teen just like the student who’s getting the counseling? For students who are leery of adults, peer counseling can provide a safe place to work through difficult family problems and stress as well as depression.

Chris:

If it wasn’t for peer counseling, I’m not sure where I would be today. Personally it’s something that I am grateful for because I was very nervous to talk to an adult.

Anne:

Should students counsel students? What are the benefits and pitfalls of these programs? Here is this week’s Education Beat with host Zaidee Stavely.

Zaidee:

When Christopher Gonzalez was a freshman in high school in Fontana, in Southern California, he was struggling with his parents’ divorce and what that meant for him.

Chris:

It was rough for me. I just, I didn’t know what to do. It was something that was just painful back then.

Zaidee:

And he didn’t know who to talk to.

Chris:

I had friends, but I was kind of like, you know, who do I go to to speak about these things? I didn’t feel comfortable talking to a stranger, you know we had counselors, but I don’t know, just didn’t feel comfortable.

Zaidee:

But then someone at Chris’s high school told him about peer counseling.

Chris:

And I said, peer counseling, that’s kind of weird.

Zaidee:

Kind of weird, but intriguing. So Chris reached out and next thing he knew he was sitting across from another student in peer counseling. The other student was only a few years older than him. A senior.

Chris:

At first I was a little shy because I was thinking to myself, okay, well, is this man really gonna keep everything confidential? I mean, what’s gonna happen? But after the first 10 minutes, it was nice to have someone kind of my age back then just listen, really understand where I was coming from and say, Hey man, like I’ve been there. I was able to kind of speak how I was feeling, what I was thinking, going through the divorce and just having some reassurance again, from someone my age, just from almost a firsthand experience saying, you know, you’re gonna be okay. You’re gonna get through this. And you know, there’s more to life than just this. You’re gonna move on to do greater things.

Zaidee:

It was such a relief to talk to someone about his feelings that right there on the first day Chris asked the guy, how do I become a peer counselor?

Chris:

And he said, well, hang on a second. We have a few more sessions. And, then we’ll go from there.

Zaidee:

In all, Chris met with his student three or four times. He loved it. And the next year as a sophomore, he applied to be he a peer counselor himself.

Chris:

Something opened up inside of me that said, okay, this is something that I wanna do. It kind of sparks a motivation in me to say, this is something I’m gonna overcome. And there’s more that I wanna give back.

Zaidee:

This is Education Beat, getting to the heart of California schools. I’m Zaidee Stavely. This week, when a kid is the counselor.

Zaidee:

Chris Gonzalez says becoming peer counselor wasn’t as simple as just signing up. First, there was training. Lots of training on how to do active listening, problem solving, how to deescalate tense situations. They role played. They took tests. And only when they completed all of that training, could they begin meeting with classmates who needed someone and to talk to.

Chris:

Sometimes we would talk to kids that just, school is so overwhelming, they have six classes, you know, they have to go home and help mom and dad. And, and I said, listen, I’m right there with you. You know, I’m here from, you know, six in the morning sometimes until six at night trying to get my work done. Being a part of our leadership program. And just knowing that at the end of the day I’m doing good. I’m really striving to do the best. And I know that you can do the best as well.

Zaidee:

Sometimes though, the problems were more serious.

Chris:

One individual he was involved in almost gang activity. Really, really going through a tough depression, drinking, you know, while we were in high school. And it was kind of hard because he just was genuinely depressed. And he was just like, I don’t know what to do with my life. I feel like my life is not gonna be anything. And I said, listen, this is not the end. This is just a struggle. This is just a stepping stone that you’re gonna overcome. And you will do great things in the life. And I listened and I engaged in conversation with this young man. And hearing the, some of the pain that he was going through, I can go back and say, well, I felt like this when my parents weren’t there. I felt like that when times when I was alone and my mom was working two jobs. But I reminded him at the end of the day, you’re not alone. And we’re here for you.

Zaidee:

Chris knows that his counseling sessions made a difference for this student.

Chris:

He actually joined our peer leadership program the following year. And after high school, him working with other students, he actually ended up getting married, finishing college, and now he owns his own business. I mean, we keep in touch every so often. We share pictures with each other of our kids and, you know, we’ll talk over the phone or through Facebook. And for me, it’s a blessing to see him striving because where he was at, you know, sophomore year of high school versus now it’s a turnaround. And I asked him, I said, Hey, man, be honest. Did you feel like peer counseling helped? Did you feel like it was something beneficial? He’s like, Chris, come on, you should already know the answer to that. Dude I don’t know where I would be?

Zaidee:

My colleague, Carolyn Jones wrote an article for EdSource about peer counseling. Hi, Carolyn.

Carolyn:

Good morning, Zaidee.

Zaidee:

So how did you get this idea to write about peer counselors?

Carolyn:

Well, since students started going back to school last fall, and last year, you know, there’s been this huge push at the state level to enhance mental health programs on campus, just because students have just been so hard hit by depression, anxiety, stress. Things were already not good for students before the pandemic. You know what with social media and rising poverty and school shootings and all the myriad things that are stressing out students. And then things got so much worse during the pandemic. So schools and districts and the state have really made this full court press to get more mental health services on campus. Hiring more counselors establishing wellness centers, doing little things like teaching kids about meditation. And I mean everything, the whole gamut. And one of those things that hasn’t been looked at very closely is peer counseling. There’s been a big push to boost up peer counseling programs because they’re cheap for starters. And they benefit a lot of students, not just the kids who are being counseled, but then the kids who serve as counselors. So I thought it was worth, a second look and really taking a close look at what this could mean on a school campus.

Zaidee:

And how common are these programs in California?

Carolyn:

There’s not a lot. There’s a few districts that do it really well and have been doing it for decades, since the eighties or even before. Clovis Unified is one of them. There’s some districts that have really been all in on this for a long time. Back in the eighties they were sort of in fashion. And then most those programs just kind of dissolved. But some of them have been going strong and have a real strong tradition. And it’s kind of part of the school culture at this point. There’s a lot of kids who sign up for it, who enjoy it, who use the services. They know it’s there, they know what to expect. So, you know, these longer term programs tend to be really successful.

Zaidee:

And what stood out to you when you’re were reporting this? Was there anything that surprised you?

Carolyn:

It was really interesting to talk to some of the counselors themselves and find out how it benefited them. You know, it really taught them communication skills and empathy. And for a lot of them, it opened up career doors to a career in psychology or counseling or social work. So it wasn’t just the students who are being counseled, who benefited. It also is the students who served as counselors. But then also, you know, there’s a lot of real pitfalls with peer counseling. It could be a total disaster if not done well. And so it’s very, very important that the school has a really strong structure for this. That the students are well educated on it, that they take a class, that the teachers know what they’re doing, that the counselors, the adult counselors on campus are in close contact with the students. So it was really interesting to me how complicated it is. It’s not just as simple as throwing two students together and say, here, talk about your problems.

Zaidee:

So can you talk a little bit more about the pitfalls because it does seem like… it seems risky in some ways to have teenagers dealing with these things.

Carolyn:

Oh yeah. Particularly, I mean, for students who are suicidal or self-harming, or, you know, have really serious problems with substance abuse. If that student confides in a peer counselor and then something bad happens like that student does commit suicide or get even further involved in substance abuse, that peer counselor, that’s something that’s very hard to shake. And so, and it’s a liability too for the school. Like, oh, you have this kid with these serious problems and you sent a fifteen year old to go help them? So, and also, you know, there’s issues of confidentiality. I mean, these peer counselors are trained, you know, confidentiality is paramount. And so how do you report that to an adult? If you think a student is in trouble, how do you report it to an adult without violating that sense of confidentiality? And knowing when to cross that line, it’s hard, it’s really hard. And that’s why it’s so important to have a really good program. I didn’t hear many horror stories. I think most of the time kids go to peer counseling for sort of more garden variety problems with friends, or I’m having trouble studying, I need study skills, or I feel left out, or my parents are bugging. I mean, it’s more ideally that’s the perfect place where peer counseling lives.

Carolyn:

And then the peer counselor, you know, they don’t really give advice. They just kind of listen, there’s someone to listen to. And they might prompt the student a little bit. Well, what do you think are some solutions here? And, you know, it’s sort of like counseling light. But for a lot of students that fits the bill. But yes. I mean, no, you’re absolutely right, Zaidee. If not done well, and if these students aren’t trained well, it could be a disaster for everybody.

Zaidee:

But so the counselors that you spoke with, you know, the adult counselors that you spoke with who have worked in these programs as advisors and that kind of thing they were pretty frank about those pitfalls, but at the same time they still see benefits?

Carolyn:

Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, one counselor I talked to said her ratio is one counselor to hundreds of students. She says she just doesn’t have time to talk to every single student who needs help. And so she really relies on these peer counselors to just connect with students in a personal, confidential way. And then if something serious does come up, she trusts the peer counselors to report it to her. Substance abuse is another big one. A big problem, you know, and some students have real problems with that. And these peer care counselors are not mandated reporters. You know, if a student’s in an abusive relationship or something, that’s why it’s so important that they know when to report stuff to trained adults who can really intervene.

Zaidee:

Clovis Unified near Fresno has had a peer counseling program since the 1980s. Baylee McPherson became a peer counselor in seventh grade. Now she’s a freshman at Clovis West High School. She says she sometimes has had peers share very serious issues like drug abuse or that they’re hurting themselves. But she’s trained on what to do.

Baylee:

A lot of times I’ve will say like, thank you for sharing that with me. I know that that was really hard to admit. Validating their feelings is like the first thing I go to. And then I’ll say like, tell me more, like, what triggers this? Why did you start? When did you start? And then after the session, I would inform my advisor that they’re self-harming.

Zaidee:

That step is crucial because adults in schools are required to report when children are harming themselves or someone else, or when someone else is hurting them. It’s one reason why peer counseling programs have to be designed carefully with lots of training and with adult advisors. Baylee says, hearing about these issues can be hard, but she feels supported.

Baylee:

It can get kind of heavy, but in the peer counseling class, you have every single person there is also your peer counselor. So it’s not like we have to deal with secondhand trauma. We can just, although we have to remain confidential because we are all students, I can talk about like, whatever situation I just heard about and like, speak about my feelings or any situation in my personal life. And I can still get the support I need. So it doesn’t necessarily feel super heavy for me.

Zaidee:

The teacher who oversees Clovis West’s peer counseling program told Carolyn that peer counselors like Baylee have been crucial.

Carolyn:

In that district Clovis, which is near Fresno, they had a rash of student suicides a few years ago. And she said that the peer counselors just played a real integral role in helping students, you know, in a really personal, confidential way work through it. You know, work through grief. Just talking about it, talking things through, it allowed every student on campus who needed help have someone to talk to. So she said it was just, you know, things could have been so much worse without that peer counseling program.

Zaidee:

And how do we know whether these programs have more benefits than pitfalls?

Carolyn:

Well, a good program, you can really see the results in student attendance, graduation rates, all the different ways we measure student engagement. Discipline rates tend to be lower at schools with strong mental health programs. Typically schools that have good peer counseling programs also have good counseling programs generally. So it’s sort of hard to like pinpoint peer counseling and say, this is the reason why. But they use peer counseling as sort of one piece in a larger puzzle. You know, some students don’t wanna talk to adult counselors. They’re not comfortable talking to adults period. So talking to a peer is much more comfortable. They’re much more likely to confide in someone their own age, because they feel like someone their own age understands what they’re going through. You know, problems with parents, problems with boyfriends or girlfriends, you know, typical teenage stuff. Sometimes teenagers wanna be with other teenagers.

Zaidee:

The peer counselors also feel like they get something out of the program.

Carolyn:

I was just really struck by how students can care for each other that way. I know that at Clovis, the teacher who organizes the whole thing says she really makes a point to bring in students from all different, you know, sides of campus, the jocks, the cheerleaders, the nerds, you know, everybody, the unpopular kids, everybody. She tries to bring everyone together and it kind of helps bridge a lot of divides on campus. And I was just really struck at how successful that was. And how, you know, if you give kids a chance, they can really reach out to each other and help each other.

Zaidee:

Chris Gonzalez says being a peer counselor in high school changed his life. The skills he learned in the program have helped him as an adult, in his marriage, in his relationship with his parents, and at his job. He’s now 31. And he works in hotel security. The other day, a woman who was staying at the hotel where he works began screaming in the lobby.

Chris:

When I arrived on scene, it was more of the staff was upset. Like, okay, this lady needs to go. This lady needs to go. And I said, well, hold on a second. Did we stop and figure out what the problem is? What can we do to help her? And so I approached her in a very calm and professional way, and I said, hi, ma’am, you know, my name’s Chris with the hotel security. What’s going on? Let’s sit down and let’s talk. And I mean, her attitude changed. I mean, she sat down and we talked in the lobby for about 45 minutes. And just hearing her story and what really set her off, it was heartbreaking. But for me, at the end of the day, I was able to resolve this issue peacefully and help her get the help that she needed.

Zaidee:

Chris says every school district should have peer counseling.

Chris:

If it wasn’t for peer counseling I’m not sure where I would be today. Personally it’s something that I am grateful for. I’m very happy that we we had. Because I was very nervous to talk to an adult and I feel like if it’s in every school district, at least in every high school, students will definitely get the help that they probably need. And maybe don’t stand up for. Maybe they’re scared too and say, I just don’t want to talk to this adult. And that’s what I like to advocate for is one-on-one peer conversation. Never be scared to talk to a peer. And just, if they’re coming to you actively, listen, don’t just brush ’em off and say, eh, well, you know, whatever. You just never know who you could… Whose life you could save or potentially turnaround.

Zaidee:

Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of Education Beat, getting to the heart of California schools, a production of EdSource. Our producer is Coby McDonald. Special thanks to Christopher Gonzalez, Baylee McPherson, Carolyn Jones, and our director Ann Vasquez. Our theme music is from Blue Dot Sessions. This episode was brought to you by the California Endowment. I’m Zaidee Stavely. Join me next week. And don’t forget to subscribe.